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Tuesday, October 15, 2002

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inactiveTopic Tuesday, October 15, 2002
started 10/15/2002; 12:19:37 AM - last post 10/17/2002; 7:39:07 AM
Doc Searls - Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 4:19:37 AM (reads: 15347, responses: 20)
What he said 
 Chis Pirillo, who was also at the Mobius thing last week, has an excellent post on the matter.
 Alan Graham has one too.
 On the phone with Dave Sifry right now, talking about the role of profanity in blogging, and how it keeps things conversational. Is converation journalism? We don't edit conversation. Almost interesting, no? (Back to the call.)
 
Rock & Roll 
 There's a thread that starts here in response to the "Blogo culpa" post below. It brings up the issue of integrity in the blogging world. Who can you trust? For what? Why?
 Integrity brings to mind an expression from geology. Solid rock — rock you can trust with your life if you climb it — is said to be "competent." Rock that crumbles easily, that has cracks and faults, that breaks apart or disintegrates under stress, is incompetent. You can't trust it.
 We use each other's blogs — as we also use trusted print and broadcast journals — to help scaffold and build our understanding of the world. We need to trust the integrity of our sources, and our sources' sources.
 Dave says "It's a matter of what kind of blogging we want -- do we want it to be sloppy or crisp." It's a good question.
 Where blogging rock gets cracked and crumbly (yes, incompetent), is — surprise — around the issue of identity. Who exactly is this person? What do they do for a living? What are they doing here? On what grounds (that earthy metaphor again) does their humor stand? Their seriousness? Their know-what and know-how? Their ignorance? Why are they saying what they say, anyhow?
 The reason blogs complicate things is that each one adds at least one more identity to the author's roster, which is always complicated to begin with. And most of us know very little about each other to begin with as well.
 The write Michael Ventura wrote (somewhere, I can't find it) about "the myth of the monopersonality." What we call sanity, he says, is nothing more than the organization of many identities behind a single name and a singular pronoun.
 Often the best we can do, when we know many others trust us to help build their own structures in the world, is reveal those inner cracks and faults, even when they don't compromise our competence.
 (More later... I have to break this off and finish up some work.)
 
Should I renew these domain names? 
 Cluelog.com, CheckoutLine.com, Marketconversation.com.
 The only one I'm inclinded to keep is CheckoutLine, because it has commercial possibilities. The others ... not sure why I should still bother. In less than 15 years I'll be 70. What's the chance I'll ever use any of them if I haven't done shit with them for the last 3 years or whatever?
 
Frontier du jour 
 While we're off the subject, here's J.D. on digital storytelling:
 Technology, which has already helped spawn a class of amateur journalists through text-based weblogs and niche news sites, is about to blast into oblivion another largely artificial distinction: the gap between professional and amateur visualists.
 
Talk about clueless 
 Meesh, a fellow Santa Barbarian blogger, has a long report on the GHB related death of a student in Ventura. What's amazing to me about the story is that I've never heard of GHB.
 
Resistance is futile 
 Speaking of clues and Microsoft, Kuro5hin has been visiting the subject of "borg bloggers. Wonder how many there are, and if the company knows how much
 
Blogo culpa 
 I just got this email from Dave:
 Doc, I just got back from my walk, and one of the things I took with me was your post about Mitch Ratcliffe's story about integrity, money and blogging.
 As your friend, I owe it to you to say this. I think you're blowing it. If you step back and think about it, you should support what Mitch says, and the proper way to show that is to apologize to your readers and promise that in the future you will disclose when you're being paid to do something that you write about. You probably need to disclose more than that, but that's a starting point.
 Your response, as it stands now, is, as Al Gore would say, snippy. You don't admit any wrongdoing. But you did fuck up. You did. By any measure of integrity, you short-shrifted your readers, your weblog, and blogging in general.
 You may publish this if you want, or not. Your choice.
 Dave
 Dave's right. I fucked up. I didn't think I was being snippy, or dishonest, or concealing (or I certainly didn't feel that way when I wrote it); but getting paid for something one writes about has journalistic significance, and I should have made it clear that this was a paid gig. (Actually, I thought I had said something to that effect a few days ago, but checking back, I didn't.) [Later...] Bryan says I said some stuff out loud, if not in the blog.
 So, my apologies. I'll be clear in the future about what I get paid for.
 I want to make some other things clear as well.
 First, I don't believe the Microsoft folks who paid me to speak at Mobius were trying to get me to shill for them, or to spin me as a journalist. They liked my speech at Gnomedex, and wanted me to give something like that again at Mobius, which I did.
 For what it's worth, I wasn't paid to speak at Gnomedex. In fact, I haven't had a paid speaking gig in about a year (I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure that's right). Before 9/11/01, I had quite a few, almost all related to Cluetrain. Like I said yesterday, I make my living as both a speaker and as a writer.
 So: who pays for what.
 Linux Journal pays me to write for them as Senior Editor, and pays my expenses at events I attend on the magazine's behalf. That's the case with most events I attend, but not all of them. Those include the Linux World Expos, the Geek Cruises, the O'Reilly conferences and other stuff that might be interesting from the magazine's perspective.
 Gnomedex in August was on my own dime. So was the last Pop!Tech I attended. I usually pay for PC Forum out of my own pocket — which sets me back thousands of dollars each year I go (an expense I gladly pay, because I think it's worth it). This year, however, I was a guest of PingID, on whose advisory board I serve. PingID was one of the main companies behind DigitalID World, which I just attended; but I bore most of the costs of going to that show. By the way, I was not on the original list of speakers or moderators for DIDW. I pushed hard for getting included because I thought somebody from outside the BigCo sphere needed to speak for individuals at the show. And what I pushed in my talk wasn't PingID the company, but rather PingID.org, which I believe is doing good and necessary work that the world needs and I'm not seeing happening anywhere else.
 I'm also on the advisory board for Jabber Inc., which flew me to Munich and put me up when I spoke there at Jabberconf in June. Same for the Jabbercon event in Colorado one year earlier.
 Nobody paid me to attend Digital Hollywood a few weeks ago. But I felt I had to go, so I went.
 There's a thread here, and maybe it isn't obvious. I work for Linux Journal, and I support PingID and Jabber Inc., because they play parts in movements I support. I want to help the good causes they stand for.
 I also take sides in causes for which I get paid nothing, like Internet radio. I've flogged KPIG ceaselessly for years, and they've never paid me a thing. (In fact, I don't think the station has ever pointed back, or said a word of thanks, not that I care.) I also flog for the EFF, Creative Commons and the American Open Technology Consortium, which I currently head even though I have almost no time for it. That's another fuckup, by the way — and all mine as well. I'm a one-man leadership vacuum there: a problem we need to fix.
 As for consulting (my third source of income), my last client was Arraycomm, which is trying to get cell phone companies to deploy broadband over their networks — something that would be good to have in the world. When they were paying me to consult them, I disclaimed it.
 The fact is, money has very little influence on what I advocate, or what I like and dislike, beyond what it does to put me in a position to talk about something. I seem to be in a seller's market for what I do, and I sell it to people (more than companies) I like — such as Beth Goza at Microsoft. She's the one who hired me, not Bill Gates. If she'd asked me to do it for nothing I still probably would have gone at my own expense, said exactly what I said, and blogged exactly what I blogged. Bringing clues to Microsoft is something I'd love to do in any case.
 If you're looking for slant, it's far more likely to be caused by friendship. I tend to say nice things about people I like, and I like a lot of people; so that adds up to a long steep incline. Maybe that's a weakness, but that's me.
 One of the things I've liked about blogging is that I've never felt the need to qualify and disclaim the shit out of everything. And maybe I felt that way because I don't get paid for what I do here. It's a free-for-all in a very literal sense.
 But it's clear to me now that we need to keep applying the principles and practices of the old Journalistic form while we figure out what the new form is all about. So henceforth I'll disclaim away.
 And I thank Mitch and Dave for calling me on my shit. (Mitch wrote and said he wasn't talking about me. I knew that, but it was beside the good points he made.)

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lou josephs - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 1:33:31 PM (reads: 832, responses: 0)
Greetings from the bunker. Sniper killling number nine last night. Details on the blog. www.myjamby.com/medianetwork.

BTW; The NAB is blocking the webcasting bill. Speaking of webcasting, I quess it does pay to stream your signal as wtop is doing. All-news WTOP says the D.C.-area sniper shootings are causing online listening to skyrocket. Bonneville's a streamer, and WTOP programmer Jim Farley says between October 1 and October 13, WTOP was listened to online 417,737 times by over 130,000 unique listeners. By comparison, it was listened to 180,000 times total for the whole month of September.

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Fred Grott - A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 2:41:32 PM (reads: 2140, responses: 7)
But what I don;t get Doc is why thepost was so blown out of portion..

I mean all the webloggers did was get paid for their airfare and hotle room, theri tiem was not paid for..

Contrast this with some speaking fess where time, travel , and hotel costs are included..

am I missing something?

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Dave Winer - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 2:49:12 PM (reads: 2665, responses: 3)
But what I don;t get Doc is why thepost was so blown out of portion..

Since it's not been determined as a fact that the post was blown out of proportion, we must conclude that this is your opinion.

It's a relatively small matter to disclose that your expenses were covered by the person or organization you're covering. It's a matter of what kind of blogging we want -- do we want it to be sloppy or crisp. I don't doubt for a nano-moment that Doc was not influenced by the money he got. I've known him for fifteen years. But I also expect him to tell me when he's being paid. Partially because I want others to do it, people I don't know for so long. And I want to be able to point to Doc as an example of the most conspicuous example of integrity in the blogging world.

Does that adequately explain why I called him on it?

Dave

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Frank McPherson - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 2:58:30 PM (reads: 886, responses: 2)
Aren't all journalists and authors paid to write what they write about? I think this is being taken way over board. Call me silly, but since I consider you a professional writer/speaker/consultant, I assume that you get paid for all these gigs. It may be more interesting to me if you disclosed that you didn't get paid.

Another thing that bothers me is how enthusiasts are being swept up in the whole blogger/journalist debate. Microsoft didn't invite webloggers to Mobius, they invited handheld computing enthusiasts. Some people have to realize that not all bloggers have journalistic ambitions. Just because a website has the form and style of a weblog doesn't all of a sudden make it something akin to the New York Times. After all, wouldn't anyone that reads a web site titled Pocket PC Thoughts expect it to be an advocate for Pocket PCs?

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Dave Winer - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 3:03:41 PM (reads: 892, responses: 1)
Frank, good point, one would expect the NY Times to be an advocate for the city of New York. They wear that conflict of interest on their masthead. But does Doc have an equivalent interest in Microsoft? Honestly, no fucking way, after reading him for years.

That's why what Doc did is so powerful. It allows us to examine the integrity issue without offending the person we're talking about. He's already issued a mea culpa, so that's behind us. Now what about other bloggers, what are they responsible for disclosing?

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Frank McPherson - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 3:53:39 PM (reads: 1008, responses: 0)
The problem I have is with the suggestion that all bloggers should conform to some set of rules.

If someone fancies themselves to be a journalist, then they need to do things so that other people recognize them as such. After all, it matters not whether I declare myself as a journalist, it only matters whether people recognize me as a journalist (which I am not).

But, I don't think weblogs are only for those who want to be considered journalists. Just as the Internet is big enough for all types of web sites, weblogging is big enough for all types of writing.

In fact, I would suggest you simply remove weblogging from the whole debate. A person that is recognized as a journalist by readers will be recognized as such regardless of whether they write in a weblog, a static web site, or on paper. Society and businesses who hire people as journalists have defined what they believe journalists to be.

I am not a journalist, and I have no intention of being recognized as such. Anyone who reads what I write is free to form their own opinion. If they like it, they continue reading. If they don't they are free to ignore it and move on.

Finally, I am having difficulty understanding how Doc's disclosure helps what he wrote in his weblog. There is actually very little content about what went on at the event. He didn't return and declare that he has switched to Windows. He simply reported that he gave a speech and was impressed by the geeks in attendance.

Should anyone form an opinion about a person's integrity by one simple paragraph? Or should that integrity be defined by a history of that person's actions? For myself, a simple one paragraph and one sentence disclosure provides little value. My opinions about your writing or Doc's writing is based on reading over a period of time.

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Doc Searls - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 3:55:20 PM (reads: 1260, responses: 0)
That's a good explanation (although I'm not comfortable with being "the most conspicuous example of integrity in the blogging world" when I hardly play that role for myself).

It's also worth noting that you brought up the issue privately, with permission to use your email in a public response. That spared us any "Dave attacks Doc" stuff that might have come up.

More on the blog.

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Frank McPherson - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 4:07:05 PM (reads: 817, responses: 2)
This doesn't sit well with me:

One of the things I've liked about blogging is that I've never felt the need to qualify and disclaim the shit out of everything. And maybe I felt that way because I don't get paid for what I do here. It's a free-for-all in a very literal sense.
I say to myself, it's a shame that Doc has to feel like he has to walk on egg shells. Integrity isn't something that someone earns through one act, it's based on history. In my book Doc has already earned my respect and belief in his integrity.

How I read a weblog is based on how it is framed. This website has Doc's name on it. There is no "journal," "news," or "newspaper" in the title. I take the title and the form of writing in it to be Doc's personal thoughts, views, opinions, with biases, warts and all. That's the cool thing about weblogs, it can be a form of writing that allows one to get to know a person.

If this web site becomes sterilized that will be a shame, and a great loss.

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rebecca blood - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 4:36:32 PM (reads: 1036, responses: 0)
I gave this subject a lot of thought when I was writing the Weblog Handbook; I chose to excerpt the result, a proposed Code of Weblog Ethics, on my site.

I think this really was an easy mistake to make and, in retrospect, an easy mistake to avoid. kudos on your forthrightness in discussing the issues that have come up, doc.

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Doc Searls - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 4:40:39 PM (reads: 915, responses: 1)
Well, I do consider my blog a journal, in the literal sense of the word. And i don't feel like I'm walking on egg shells. Dave brought up a serious issue. It may be one he takes more seriously than other folks, but I'm glad he does.

The division we need to watch here isn't between honest and dishonest, but between professional and amateur. Blogging is mostly an amateur activity, even for professionals. Except for Andrew Sullivan, Mickey Kaus and a few others, hardly anybody makes a living from blogging. And in the case of Sullivan, the money comes from many people, not one company.

To a large degree, we trust the absence of money in blogging. That's why when somebody is being paid by a company they're blogging about, it should be made clear that's what's going on, even if the pay has no influence. You want to keep the professional taint away.

And again, I think we're just beginning to figure this shit out. It's not a sterile process.

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Alan Graham - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 5:00:30 PM (reads: 1894, responses: 0)
In principle I don't disagree with this. I think it is important to feel you can trust your source...but I also think that everyone has their own particular guidelines on this, and each person has to define that for themselves.

I think it was admirable to make the posting and get it out in the open. I didn't see it as an attack...but I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that the majority of journalist and writers (including bloggers) are somehow part of the food chain. We write in protest about some items and applaud others (we all have agendas regardless of finance)...and somehow we all take our compensation from the "man." Including myself...I am paid by a publisher, that although highly respected, takes advertising dollars from companies that make products...which pays my fees. We all have to keep the lights on.

Our responsibility as readers is to educate our internal dialogue and bullshit meter to separate the good from the bad. This to me is our issue, not Doc's. Some writers I don't trust at all based on their track record. As far as blogging is concerned, I feel the line between journalism and journals is razor thin. Each one seems to cross the line between each realm.

I started blogging so that I had a forum to speak my mind without an editor changing the meaning of my words...to give me a place where I can speak without having to schlep my wares for money. But...at the end of the day, we all have to answer to ourselves.

One last thought...like Doc, I'm also not comfortable with holding him up as an icon of blogging integrity...not because I don't agree with or trust what he says, but because the moment I immortalize him, I feel I lose my right to question him. I want sinners, not saints. However, I think that the letter you sent and the postings made after...ARE a prime example at what I would hold up to someone and say "this is an example of what blogging is all about." That screams integrity.

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adamsj - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 5:22:36 PM (reads: 1109, responses: 1)
When I wrote about music, I always called review copies of LPs "bribes" in my columns. I liked to go on at some length at whether or not it was a good bribe, like the black-and-blue vinyl copy of Bruiseology by The Waitresses.

I was less constant about referring to free admissions to shows as bribes.

My reasoning was that I wouldn't have anything left to keep after the show, whereas I could always (though I never did) sell the LP. Further, there was no cost to giving me a free admission, whereas the review copy of the LP cost money.

In retrospect, I think it was as much that I felt more comfortable referring to freebies from record companies--truly the scum of the earth--as "bribes" than I did freebies from musicians. If I had it to do over again, I'd rethink this.

Bring me the head of David Geffen! (Now that's schwag!)

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Frank McPherson - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 5:22:42 PM (reads: 985, responses: 0)
I think there are assumptions being made here about why people read weblogs. The reasons why people read may be, and are likely to be, different than the reasons why people write weblogs.

When it comes to trust, I am not sure money makes as much of a difference as one thinks. Kaycee's weblog didn't solicit money, but it did paint a picture of being something that it was not. Further, even if a person discloses that they are paid a certain amount for a certain thing, how do you know whether they are telling the whole truth?

You say the division here is between professional and amateur, why? Perhaps we are trying to make more here than there really is. Why can't weblogs be viewed as nothing more than a form of software and a style of writing? Perhaps the problem is trying to define weblogging as a new verb, when it might not be a new verb at all.

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lou josephs - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 6:17:42 PM (reads: 799, responses: 0)
Disclosures: I work for various radio stations in Europe and I also am involved with a few in the US. I don't mention them in the blog. I also work with talent as well. I have mentioned one person because she's worth listening who works at BBC radio 1. And yeah I have a vested interest in seeing her succeed. In tech space, I worked for Loral Cyberstar but my seperation agreement gags me on what I can say about those folks.

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Fred Grott - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 6:37:39 PM (reads: 1253, responses: 0)
Yes, you are right Dav eit was my opinion and yes you did answwer my question thanks..

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Doc Searls - Re: A question about pay and Influence  blueArrow
10/15/2002; 8:02:54 PM (reads: 1102, responses: 0)
Bring me the head of David Geffen! (Now *that's* schwag!)

That's a keeper quote. Hah!

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Tom Poe - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/16/2002; 1:57:04 AM (reads: 830, responses: 2)
Hi: Probably worth a moment of discussion on this topic. First, though, you're a fine fellow, Doc. We all love you.

Your ethics are yours, not someone else's. Apologies are not expected.

When someone starts down the path of accepting money to blog about a company, or event, from the company or event promoter, she needs to stop a moment and look ahead. At some point down that road, there is a pot hole that is called, "If I'm not paid, maybe I'm not interested." A little further down that road, is another pot hole that is called, "Will this be paying me at some point, if I'm interested?" And, yet further down that road, is yet another pot hole that is called, "If I'm not sure about whether I'll be paid at some point, I'm definitely not interested, and possibly I'll expect others not to be interested, as well."

It's a bumpy road, Doc. Best of luck. Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV http://www.studioforrecording.org/

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Frank McPherson - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/16/2002; 2:58:44 AM (reads: 913, responses: 1)
See, that's the problem. Doc didn't get paid to blog about the event, he got paid to speak at the event. He is a "for hire" speaker, he is supposed to be paid. I expect him to be paid. He blogged about the fact that he spoke at the event. In other words, he blogged about what he was doing, which is something that the majority of bloggers do every day. If one blogs about what they did on their job, are they expected to disclose how much they are paid?

I understand disclosure when it is germain to the topic. If Doc was posting a formal review of software, and recommended it highly, then there may be a problem with him not disclosing the fact that Microsoft paid for his trip and food. That did not happen here, so I guess I don't get the necessity for disclosure in this case.

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Tom Poe - Re: Tuesday, October 15, 2002  blueArrow
10/16/2002; 3:21:43 AM (reads: 984, responses: 0)
Hi, Frank: Well put. As I understood the original topic, it was about weblogging for hire without disclosure: good or bad?

My comment was directed at the general ethical considerations of the topic at hand. Doc was apologizing for both not disclosing financial interest, and for not disclosing payment for speaking at an event. You're directing your comment to one aspect of the discussion, and I agree with you on that point. In fact, I doubt there are many who would disagree with you on your point about speaking engagements.

Thanks, Tom Poe Open Studios Reno, NV http://www.studioforrecording.org/

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Joichi Ito - Trust and the Blogging Ethics Discussion  blueArrow
10/17/2002; 11:39:07 AM (reads: 1139, responses: 0)
I was talking to Veer of Blogstreet the other day in the context of blog rolls. I think it is about developing networks of trust. If disclaimers and disclosures help your readers trust you. Great. Do it. It is all part of building trust. If people understand what type of person you are and what your ehtics are through reading your blog, I think there is great value. If someone is doing it for fun and is VERY personal, I think that disclosures are less important. If you write in a very objective style, you may need to disclose more to earn the kind of trust you are looking for. I don't formally disclose much in my blog about my conflicts, but I write about almost everything I do in sort of a diary form and even blog about the conflicts I have as part of my content. (Joi's Co-option Ceremony)

I think that the way blogs create and manage trust between bloggers and between bloggers are readers is more dynamic than the way formal journalism does it. I think you just need to find a style that adds the most value to yourself and the people you talk to and stick to it. I need to think about this more, but "trust" is a very key word. Blogs enable the creation and management of trust outside of centralized brands and authority...

started thread on my blog...

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